The reality of the Gods has never been an issue to me. As an animist polytheist since I was 12 - the point at which I formalised my experiences of them - I have never considered this reality as problematic. But then my education was more eclectic and wider than any university, since I experienced the Gods through embodiment. I've continued in this vein and have always felt welcome in any spiritual tradition that recognized the Gods.
I'm not a Tolkien scholar, but I believe he did call them "gods" sometimes in his writings and letters, though usually within scare quotes. His conception of the relationship between the Valar and the world is certainly informed by classical mythology, with the Valar occupying the place of the Olympians or the Aesir. He was always very clear that their place as immanent rulers *within* creation was entirely different from the place of Eru as transcendent ruler *over* creation.
On the subject of governing spirits of the nations, Cardinal Newman offered this view:
"Daniel speaks as if each nation had its guardian Angel. I cannot but think that there are beings with a great deal of good in them, yet with great defects, who are the animating principles of certain institutions, &c., &c. … Take England with many high virtues, and yet a low Catholicism. It seems to me that John Bull is a spirit neither of heaven nor hell …"
And yet, it was resolved. Just not in the Latin West. The Byzantines did resolve it. And they continued to honour the memory of the gods a different way, just as the memory of the Titans was resolved by Hesiod making way for the Olympians. It is not the first time history has seen a succession of the gods. I realise the main focus is the British post Enlightenment context. But what they received was coloured by the ignorance of precisely these elements.
My whole Substack is about this. If you see my most recent (free) article, which is a more personal perspective, the links go to the more formally argued pieces. For a detailed study on understanding Greek religion past and present (which also answers this), see https://thyrathen.substack.com/p/the-many-and-the-one-what-we-get . Copious footnotes throughout ☺️
One reason people may not be raising the question of the gods in relation to the current interest in the Odyssey is that they are not a significant presence in the film, which underlines your argument.
As for Milton, there are a surprising number of references to Classical deities in Paradise Lost, and his earlier Comus invokes Sabrina as guardian deity of the Severn. In the poem you reference, in spite of being dismissed, the “yellow-skirted fays” still dance in the Moon maze.
I think of the words of W. P. Ker : “For the gods who are defeated think that defeat no refutation.”
In the OT, YHVH does not say to His “chosen”: “Those other gods are lies, non-existent, you are deceived by the belief in them…they are demonic evil gods…” or such. He states “ You will have no other gods before me…I am the God of the Israelites…”. I find this fascinating. The so-called “One God” of the Israelites seems to exist in a reality populated by numerous gods He himself acknowledges the existence of (the Genesis story of creation notwithstanding). He has a purpose for his chosen and any and all other god’s purposes, mercy, prophecy are to be ignored. Many times “His” people rebel or revert to other faiths and must be corrected, a lesson taught again and again. Evidence of the “ancient alien battle” theory of theology perhaps? I remain essentially agnostic…☮️🕉️
I wonder if you have seen John Carey's "A Single Ray of the Sun"; there is a provocative piece in there on evidence for the treatment of the gods in the earliest Irish Christian literature that is tantalizingly different from what became the theological norm.
A fascinating piece. I would add about Milton that in Samson Agonistes, God is clearly presented as one local deity among others who has to prevail over Dagon etc. before he can rise to his present eminence. It reminds me of Zadie Smith's description of Kafka in her essay "F. Kafka, Everyman" as a "Kafka we rarely think of, a writer in competition with other writers in a small Prague literary scene, measuring himself against the achievements of his peers".
Thanks for the thought-provoking article. It leads me to wonder about the resources that this tradition might provide to Christians grappling with other religions with highly-developed spiritual cosmologies -- namely, Hinduism and Buddhism. Both of those religions posit a vast array of spiritual personages, of varying degrees of virtue and evil, and varying degrees of authority and power within human affairs (and of course have many internal differences and debates about the precise nature of such things).
What does the Christian tradition of grappling with Western paganism tell us about the possible methods of grappling with Eastern polytheisms? That could be the subject of a heck of a long book, I think!
That's a very interesting question. I'd be interested to hear how Indian Christians, say, relate to Hinduism; I know there's a tradition of Hindus venerating Jesus in some contexts and even going on pilgrimage to Christian sites (although in the current political climate in India I think it's become more dichotomised). In Buddhism there's some crossover with traditional Christian thought on the gods as both traditions (while acknowledging their ontological reality) consider them ultimately rather unimportant, albeit for very different reasons!
Fascinating as always Francis - thanks. The notion of the Incarnation signaling a change in the cosmic order - a shift in the 'rules of the game' pre and post the coming of Christ - is very interesting. Is this requirement for 'subordination to divine sovereignty' linked to ideas of rebellion i.e. is there a connection between those hypothetical gods who refused to subordinate, and the angelic fall, for example?
At the end of Revelations, in book 22, John says that in the New Jerusalem the leaves of the trees of life will be for the “healing of the nations,” and perhaps that refers to their angels. “The gods” are surely these, and not demons, but demons would have inhabited the idols. Somewhere I read that Athena’s attributes passed to the Virgin Mary, but I cannot remember where I read that. Of course, positive attributes of many goddesses became intertwined with her, too.
Yes, the Panagia absorbed the majority of the attributes and epithets of most of the major goddesses, and some practices to this day are those that once honoured Demeter, Athena, and Hera. The epithets remain, the practices remain. Seen from the inside, this is not difficult. The other goddesses were absorbed by various cults of saints. There too, practices, attributes, and epithets remain.
Very thoughtful and thought-provoking piece. Islam must have faced a similar problem in the societies it conquered. I imagine that there must be quite a lot of scholarship on that. The Virgin Mary certainly played a hinge-like function between the two cultures.
Yes, and it seems to me that’s where any real discussion of the gods and our relation to them must begin. All this scholarly discourse strikes me as smoke and mirrors, a distracting dance around the much more interesting question of how to build a personal faith within a modern, scientific understanding of the universe and a recognition of the role myth plays in structuring our experience of the world.
Imho, author Manly Hall (The Secret Teachings of All Ages) has the most thorough treatise on the subject of the Christian Bible and how thoroughly "paganistic" it actually is in its origin. Great read.
The reality of the Gods has never been an issue to me. As an animist polytheist since I was 12 - the point at which I formalised my experiences of them - I have never considered this reality as problematic. But then my education was more eclectic and wider than any university, since I experienced the Gods through embodiment. I've continued in this vein and have always felt welcome in any spiritual tradition that recognized the Gods.
Makes me think of Tolkien's cosmology, where a very recognisable pantheon of gods is ordained by the one God.
I suspect Tolkien wouldn’t have called them Gods. Beings worthy of respect and even reverence, as the elves did, but not worship.
I'm not a Tolkien scholar, but I believe he did call them "gods" sometimes in his writings and letters, though usually within scare quotes. His conception of the relationship between the Valar and the world is certainly informed by classical mythology, with the Valar occupying the place of the Olympians or the Aesir. He was always very clear that their place as immanent rulers *within* creation was entirely different from the place of Eru as transcendent ruler *over* creation.
On the subject of governing spirits of the nations, Cardinal Newman offered this view:
"Daniel speaks as if each nation had its guardian Angel. I cannot but think that there are beings with a great deal of good in them, yet with great defects, who are the animating principles of certain institutions, &c., &c. … Take England with many high virtues, and yet a low Catholicism. It seems to me that John Bull is a spirit neither of heaven nor hell …"
Ooh, John Bull as a fairy! I love it
And yet, it was resolved. Just not in the Latin West. The Byzantines did resolve it. And they continued to honour the memory of the gods a different way, just as the memory of the Titans was resolved by Hesiod making way for the Olympians. It is not the first time history has seen a succession of the gods. I realise the main focus is the British post Enlightenment context. But what they received was coloured by the ignorance of precisely these elements.
Fascinating! Do you have some recommended sources for an explanation of the Byzantine perspective?
My whole Substack is about this. If you see my most recent (free) article, which is a more personal perspective, the links go to the more formally argued pieces. For a detailed study on understanding Greek religion past and present (which also answers this), see https://thyrathen.substack.com/p/the-many-and-the-one-what-we-get . Copious footnotes throughout ☺️
Thank you!
One reason people may not be raising the question of the gods in relation to the current interest in the Odyssey is that they are not a significant presence in the film, which underlines your argument.
As for Milton, there are a surprising number of references to Classical deities in Paradise Lost, and his earlier Comus invokes Sabrina as guardian deity of the Severn. In the poem you reference, in spite of being dismissed, the “yellow-skirted fays” still dance in the Moon maze.
I think of the words of W. P. Ker : “For the gods who are defeated think that defeat no refutation.”
In the OT, YHVH does not say to His “chosen”: “Those other gods are lies, non-existent, you are deceived by the belief in them…they are demonic evil gods…” or such. He states “ You will have no other gods before me…I am the God of the Israelites…”. I find this fascinating. The so-called “One God” of the Israelites seems to exist in a reality populated by numerous gods He himself acknowledges the existence of (the Genesis story of creation notwithstanding). He has a purpose for his chosen and any and all other god’s purposes, mercy, prophecy are to be ignored. Many times “His” people rebel or revert to other faiths and must be corrected, a lesson taught again and again. Evidence of the “ancient alien battle” theory of theology perhaps? I remain essentially agnostic…☮️🕉️
I wonder if you have seen John Carey's "A Single Ray of the Sun"; there is a provocative piece in there on evidence for the treatment of the gods in the earliest Irish Christian literature that is tantalizingly different from what became the theological norm.
Yes I wrote a piece on Carey not long ago
Missed it, just saw.
I have just been reading some early histories of the Church and its authors.
The thing that struck me was the way those different early theologians reacted to classical literary works:-
Some accepted aspects of the wisdom within these works, and wanted to pass on their wisdom.
Whilst others cast out all relevance of literary classics. Wanting to eradicate all pagan culture.
It didn’t seem to me that either position survived completely at the expense of the other. Both continued to be held by different theologians.
A fascinating piece. I would add about Milton that in Samson Agonistes, God is clearly presented as one local deity among others who has to prevail over Dagon etc. before he can rise to his present eminence. It reminds me of Zadie Smith's description of Kafka in her essay "F. Kafka, Everyman" as a "Kafka we rarely think of, a writer in competition with other writers in a small Prague literary scene, measuring himself against the achievements of his peers".
Thanks for the thought-provoking article. It leads me to wonder about the resources that this tradition might provide to Christians grappling with other religions with highly-developed spiritual cosmologies -- namely, Hinduism and Buddhism. Both of those religions posit a vast array of spiritual personages, of varying degrees of virtue and evil, and varying degrees of authority and power within human affairs (and of course have many internal differences and debates about the precise nature of such things).
What does the Christian tradition of grappling with Western paganism tell us about the possible methods of grappling with Eastern polytheisms? That could be the subject of a heck of a long book, I think!
That's a very interesting question. I'd be interested to hear how Indian Christians, say, relate to Hinduism; I know there's a tradition of Hindus venerating Jesus in some contexts and even going on pilgrimage to Christian sites (although in the current political climate in India I think it's become more dichotomised). In Buddhism there's some crossover with traditional Christian thought on the gods as both traditions (while acknowledging their ontological reality) consider them ultimately rather unimportant, albeit for very different reasons!
Fascinating as always Francis - thanks. The notion of the Incarnation signaling a change in the cosmic order - a shift in the 'rules of the game' pre and post the coming of Christ - is very interesting. Is this requirement for 'subordination to divine sovereignty' linked to ideas of rebellion i.e. is there a connection between those hypothetical gods who refused to subordinate, and the angelic fall, for example?
At the end of Revelations, in book 22, John says that in the New Jerusalem the leaves of the trees of life will be for the “healing of the nations,” and perhaps that refers to their angels. “The gods” are surely these, and not demons, but demons would have inhabited the idols. Somewhere I read that Athena’s attributes passed to the Virgin Mary, but I cannot remember where I read that. Of course, positive attributes of many goddesses became intertwined with her, too.
Yes, the Panagia absorbed the majority of the attributes and epithets of most of the major goddesses, and some practices to this day are those that once honoured Demeter, Athena, and Hera. The epithets remain, the practices remain. Seen from the inside, this is not difficult. The other goddesses were absorbed by various cults of saints. There too, practices, attributes, and epithets remain.
Fascinating article!
Very thoughtful and thought-provoking piece. Islam must have faced a similar problem in the societies it conquered. I imagine that there must be quite a lot of scholarship on that. The Virgin Mary certainly played a hinge-like function between the two cultures.
Dare I say, the problem goes away if you believe (or recognize) that all gods are mythological?
Yes, and it seems to me that’s where any real discussion of the gods and our relation to them must begin. All this scholarly discourse strikes me as smoke and mirrors, a distracting dance around the much more interesting question of how to build a personal faith within a modern, scientific understanding of the universe and a recognition of the role myth plays in structuring our experience of the world.
Imho, author Manly Hall (The Secret Teachings of All Ages) has the most thorough treatise on the subject of the Christian Bible and how thoroughly "paganistic" it actually is in its origin. Great read.